What are the best classes & specs for each different role?

[Ana]

Actually! I rested my case after reading through Killerduki's calculations which showed a paladin tank producing comparable threat to myself spamming Mind Blast on cooldown, but I'm curious about this:

Can someone provide a raidstats link to a recent boss fight on this server with a paladin MTing? Something that isn't quirky, preferably (Magmadar is probably the best pick, Golemagg works too; from BWL maybe Flamegor / Ebonroc). Just to see the overall raid numbers in the fight.

[smilkovpetko]

I think you're confusing what's possible with what's optimal. The math is saying that threat and mitigation-wise, paladins can't compare to warriors. Nobody said it was impossible to MT as a paladin, and nobody said you can't raid MC with 40 druids.

So using first hand experience of "I paladin tanked this boss" can't disprove the math, because the math never said it was impossible. The math just said that it's probably a much better idea to use a warrior if you care about threat or mitigation.

And how did you got the math that Warrior is better than Paladin on Aggro or Surviving ?! Have you ever tested on equal skilled,geared ?

[smilkovpetko]

Actually! I rested my case after reading through Killerduki's calculations which showed a paladin tank producing comparable threat to myself spamming Mind Blast on cooldown, but I'm curious about this:

Can someone provide a raidstats link to a recent boss fight on this server with a paladin MTing? Something that isn't quirky, preferably (Magmadar is probably the best pick, Golemagg works too; from BWL maybe Flamegor / Ebonroc). Just to see the overall raid numbers in the fight.

Unfortunately i am not yet lvl 60 in server , i know some Protection Paladins that are Tanking but "due to knowledge" of majority population none had any chance to give them a shot as MT .

I will post you some links from some Boss fights in Peenix as MT.

Magmadar

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 64&Fight=1

Without fire resistance gear tanked.

Garr :

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 64&Fight=3

Solo tanked everything Boss+Adds , suddenly at end ranges went crazy and aoe burned last 4 adds died from 4x explosions . But other tank saved the day

Sulfuron Harbringer :

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 64&Fight=6

Solo tanked all 4 adds while Warrior was on Boss.

Golemag :

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 64&Fight=7

Solo Tanking 2x 15 Debuffs (the boss went down to 15%) then Warrior Taunted at end.

Majordomo :

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... 64&Fight=8

Tanked the Boss , each time he reset Aggro = Judgement of Righteousness was Taunt (perfect job).

Ossirian the Unscarred:

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... t=11132824

This is the server Fastest kill we got in that Period , i was Maintanking the Boss.

(this was recorded fights from me as MT)

(previously i was not able to record neither i knew how to) .

[Rarfoster]

No, I understand. I am not the one saying math proves it impossible, I've seen others make that claim, as untrue as it is. Yes paladins are mathematically proven to be less effective as the warrior, if the calculations are taking into account every variable, but the mentality that because paladins aren't as good they shouldn't be taken is toxic to progress.

My point is even if the math says Paladins aren't as effective as warriors doesn't mean the encounters can't be done effectively none the less. All the math arguments earlier in this thread is pointless when in practice it can be done. The original argument was that paladins can tank everything, the counter argument is that they aren't as good so shouldn't be considered. These paladin tanks are arguing they should be considered because it can be done effectively because they have done it. So will I allow the calculations to dictate whether I should roll a paladin tank, or take one as a mt? I say no because a whole bunch of equations will onlyshow me exactly how a boss fight will go from start to finish if EVERY factor is accounted for, and that is to tall of an order for any forum goer to prove. Way too many variables. So unless you are racing for server firsts, who care what is more effective if 40mans were designed to be forgiving enough to allow a diversity of classes doing different roles. The min maxing mentality is real.

[Ana]

the mentality that because paladins aren't as good they shouldn't be taken is toxic to progress.

The main problem here is that fury warriors / rogues are already threat capped and need to slow down on DPSing (if they know their shit, anyway). If you substitute a warrior tank with a paladin which generates less single target threat, you're basically gimping the whole raid in terms of efficiency for the sake of, dunno, proving a point?

@duki
That's cool, hard to gauge the gear used in those fights though (which is why I asked for 1) recent 2) Nost fights, specifically).

[Rarfoster]

the mentality that because paladins aren't as good they shouldn't be taken is toxic to progress.

The main problem here is that fury warriors / rogues are already threat capped and need to slow down on DPSing (if they know their shit, anyway). If you substitute a warrior tank with a paladin which generates less single target threat, you're basically gimping the whole raid in terms of efficiency for the sake of, dunno, proving a point?

@duki
That's cool, hard to gauge the gear used in those fights though (which is why I asked for 1) recent 2) Nost fights, specifically).

I totally agree, but it all comes back to the "what is more efficient" argument. Its more efficient to bring a paladin tank to lower level instances because you can speed run the content faster, but people still bring warriors. Hell, I was denied a tank spot in Dead mines because I have no taunt. Yet the next group cleared the instance almost twice as fast, as well as no wipes, with my paladin tanking. I know that is lower level content, trivial easy mode shit. But it can be argued that the raids are easy mode as well. Its more serious business than lower content, obviously, but the point remains that said mentality takes the fun out of things for the sake of efficiency. Why not challenge yourself on 10 year old content instead of entirely face rolling it because you dotted all your I's and crossed your T's?

I know this argument is more of a preference, but its not just to make a point using a paladin tank. Its to have fun, mixing it up a bit and have a good time clearing content instead of following the same old cookie cutter raid compositions. Denying a class a role for the sake of efficiency is fine if you have a reason/need to be efficient. But if its just to have fun clearing a raid, why not do something new?

[smilkovpetko]

the mentality that because paladins aren't as good they shouldn't be taken is toxic to progress.

The main problem here is that fury warriors / rogues are already threat capped and need to slow down on DPSing (if they know their shit, anyway). If you substitute a warrior tank with a paladin which generates less single target threat, you're basically gimping the whole raid in terms of efficiency for the sake of, dunno, proving a point?

@duki
That's cool, hard to gauge the gear used in those fights though (which is why I asked for 1) recent 2) Nost fights, specifically).

If you substitute a warrior tank with a paladin which generates less single target threat, you're basically gimping the whole raid in terms of efficiency for the sake of, dunno, proving a point?

This is not true at all , many factors are taken , but once for all i repeat that Paladins does much more Threats than Warriors in single target. (our threats are based on damage and not the invisible "mechanic" ways as Warrior does) . The point is that . The more damage you output as Paladin the more Threats + some invisible extra threats by holy shield.

The Spell Damage Weapons make that happen. (makes our threats scale with this ) .

Regarding the Logs i posted (it was used Sageblade) during that Tanking Bosses , which is obviously "pre raid" weapon.

(even the server Record fastest kill) that we did in the aq20 log i was using the same Weapon where you can see that DPS had no mercy burning from the start until the end. (and i was more than the warrior tank on threats) .

http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... t=11132824

[JCarrill0]

I can't think of a any guilds on nost using any Paladins tanks as MT to provide proof that Paladins generate more TPS then Warrior Tank.

I am skeptical on this overall, because... well if the last 10 years has been saying these 11 million players who all think warrior are more efficient and suddenly we been wrong because paladins were this hidden diamond in the rough who never got the chance, surly it was been tested then and now, and the same conclusion is... Warrior are deemed better at it.

Keep in mind, I am Pro Tankadin, but dictating that warrior tanks should step aside to let us Tankadin come in and become MT's is far from what I believe. I was always willing to step up as a Tankadin when we were lacking a tank, but never did I try and step over our Warrior tanks for boss fights. My ego always comes Second to the needs of the 39 other people wanting to raid.

[smilkovpetko]

I can't think of a any guilds on nost using any Paladins tanks as MT to provide proof that Paladins generate more TPS then Warrior Tank.

I am skeptical on this overall, because... well if the last 10 years has been saying these 11 million players who all think warrior are more efficient and suddenly we been wrong because paladins were this hidden diamond in the rough who never got the chance, surly it was been tested then and now, and the same conclusion is... Warrior are deemed better at it.

Keep in mind, I am Pro Tankadin, but dictating that warrior tanks should step aside to let us Tankadin come in and become MT's is far from what I believe. I was always willing to step up as a Tankadin when we were lacking a tank, but never did I try and step over our Warrior tanks for boss fights. My ego always comes Second to the needs of the 39 other people wanting to raid.

People been judgjing at beginning the Paladin Threats false because we had no Taunt . This have lead all those years into wrong direction .

Another thing was that at patch 1.9 Majority got confused into changes regarding "Threats" and didn't realize that they had to use Spell Damage Weapon in order to build Threats where they been using "melee weapon".

Blizzard for that at TBC x-pack released Paladin sets and Taunt in order to teach this Confused people.

Even WowWiki says that at TBC best weapon for Paladin Tanks is Spell Damage Weapon :

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/BC_tankin ... paladin%29

Top Weapon :

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Gladiator's_Gavel

Stats : Sp + Sta + Int + resilience .


Tell me how many Vanilla Paladin have you seen in Retail to use Spell Damage Weapon ?!. NONE.

That just prove that we actually (the most skilled) was hidden diamonds.

[Tinkertown]

Tell me how many Vanilla Paladin have you seen in Retail to use Spell Damage Weapon ?!.

Lots. A paladin on my server even had the Wraith Blade.

And if you read the guides written at that time, they did indeed suggest to use spell damage weapons for tanking.