Life Stealing vs Crusader

[Undertanker]

I am looking into enchanting my Julie's dagger with more self healing to pair with the HoT it already has.

Between crusader and life stealing, what is the static proc rate of each (ppm doesnt exist). I would like to determine which is best for heal only, ignore the 100 str and damage from lifestealing.

[JCarrill0]

Since no one has replied, I will add my 2 cents.
Crusader proc'd more for me when I was DPS them when a buddy of mine used Lifesteal. We used 2 handers, not dagger so I am not sure how relevant this was, but we both used the same 2 Hander. They eventually switched to Crusader as well.

[SuperDuck]

http://rogerkarlsson.com/blogs/wow/lifestealing/
This analysis is from (late) vanilla and shows that lifestealing was ppm. The math is definitely flawed, and i would not use it as a source to get the actual values, but it definitely shows that the percent % to proc varied.

I have heard before that ppm was not a thing in vanilla, but the above implies otherwise. I haven't found any sources showing that ppm was added later (no patch notes etc). Do you have any information on it you can share that is not annecdotal?

[stimz]

Fairly sure crusader was PPM even in vanilla.

[Youfie]

(ppm doesnt exist)

[Fenrir]

PPM did not exist in vanilla. Enchants have a variable proc rate based on weapon speed so that fast weapons are not substantially better.

For example, with a 3.00 speed weapon crusader will proc twice as often as on a 1.50 speed weapon but you are attacking half as often so it balances out.

[SuperDuck]

PPM did not exist in vanilla. Enchants have a variable proc rate based on weapon speed so that fast weapons are not substantially better.

For example, with a 3.00 speed weapon crusader will proc twice as often as on a 1.50 speed weapon but you are attacking half as often so it balances out.

Mate, that's exactly what PPM means (or meant in Vanilla, BC, and wrath at least).

If you need further explanation PPM stands for procs per minute, and is the value of procs you get on average when auto attacking.

Also makes slow weapons better when factoring in specials.

[stimz]

PPM did not exist in vanilla. Enchants have a variable proc rate based on weapon speed so that fast weapons are not substantially better.

For example, with a 3.00 speed weapon crusader will proc twice as often as on a 1.50 speed weapon but you are attacking half as often so it balances out.

Yep, as duck said that is an exact definition of procs per minute. I'm guessing the confusion of PPM not existing is coming from TBC warrior mace spec which was changed to PPM from vanilla's 5%. Seal of Command(and justice, wisdom, light ect) has been PPM since day 1, as has Crusader. Fiery/Lifestealing no clue, but imo they're pretty trashy enchants when compared to crusader even for rogues.

[Fenrir]

PPM did not exist in vanilla. Enchants have a variable proc rate based on weapon speed so that fast weapons are not substantially better.

For example, with a 3.00 speed weapon crusader will proc twice as often as on a 1.50 speed weapon but you are attacking half as often so it balances out.

Yep, as duck said that is an exact definition of procs per minute. I'm guessing the confusion of PPM not existing is coming from TBC warrior mace spec which was changed to PPM from vanilla's 5%. Seal of Command(and justice, wisdom, light ect) has been PPM since day 1, as has Crusader. Fiery/Lifestealing no clue, but imo they're pretty trashy enchants when compared to crusader even for rogues.

It depends on your definition of PPM. "Procs per minute" is just a unit of measure, it literally means "the number of procs you get per minute". SuperDuck and yourself are making an assumption that PPM is only talking about auto attacks but there is plenty of information on vanilla wow mechanics where people are not making that assumption.

To put it another way, there is nothing in the game code or mechanics about PPM. The only rules enforced by the game mechanics and code is proc chance on individual hits.

Enchants that give a weapon a proc all have a variable proc chance based on weapon speed.

You say that this is the definition of PPM but that is only true if you are assuming that the acronym PPM stands for "Procs Per Minute on auto attacks" and it does not. As mentioned by SuperDuck, it means "Procs Per Minute" and there is plenty of discussion on the internet about wow mechanics where players are not making that assumption. Including very excellent posts from 2005 and 2006 related to the PPM of crusader for rogues vs. warriors or MH vs. OH.

PPM is certainly a thing that you can talk about but given the context of this thread and forum that it sits in (Mechanics and classes), discussion of actual game mechanics seems more prudent. Since PPM is not part of the game mechanics, it can be misleading in this context. In addition, it also glosses over how the game mechanics actually work.

[Undertanker]

In Vanilla, item procs and enchants had base % chances. The whole 2x slower weapon procs 2x more should not exist. That is BC + as proc builds with procs procing of themselves and proc other procs was simply OP as hell. Not many did this setup, but I was one that did and topped meters.

What you two describe implies that these procs have internal global cooldowns which they should not.

Example would be thunderfury, on release it was a flat rate of about 32%'. It got nerfed to 15% then buffed to about 25%.

Firey was always best proc enchant cause of about 17% proc chance.


@Fir.. PPM is still what you are describing. Be it auto attack or rotational testing.