Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

by azamous » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:22 am

I think we should've just let Nostalrius die a long time ago.
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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

by sorrana » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:33 am

sure, if society doesnt work anymore.....let it die...ez

srsly....
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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

by Rawyn » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:45 am

Winterflaw wrote:
5. So what now?

I'm not actually clear about what's happening to Elysium - is it permanently down? has the money contributed to its upkeep (assuming there is some, and its a meaningful amount) been taken over by Light's Hope? if so, Elysium would seem to be dead - how can they pay for their servers? is Light's Hope the same as Elysium, minus the people who were deceiving players?


From what i did read (from Pottu in this forum) and from what i did listen by Ash and Whitekidney, Light's Hope is taking over they have the current data (max 1 hr rollback only they said), so the realm will be the same maybe they will change names but the timeline will stay the same, however maybe but maybe there will be a fresh realm (hope so imho). According to to what Whitekidney say the other Elysium staff got the old data that can be from 6 weeks ago to 3 months ago, im just reporting what i did listen last night nothing more.
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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

by Leynara » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:18 pm

Is there any information on when this lightshope server will be up?
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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

by Wirt » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:04 pm

Winterflaw wrote:1. Accusation is not guilt

Jurisprudence is bloody difficult and humans are no good at it. It's hard enough to get even vaguely right in a court, wih trained professionals. In an on-line forum full of people with no training? forget it. People "prove" what they believe.

Be clear - I'm not offering *any* opinion here about what happened or why; I'm only saying that there has not been, and in this forum there cannot be, any decent jurisprudence. Keep that in mind; don't go overboard on judgement. You've not heard anything or anyone speak in the defence.
You're incorrect. We know for a fact that Shenna has been leeching off money. You can hear her admit it in a staff meeting 2 minutes in on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huH76Mv ... e=youtu.be And here's a transcript I made:

Shenna: I personally don't work in real life at this point "..."
Ghostly: I understand.
Shenna: Yeah...
Ghostly: However, in my eyes...
Shenna: I wasn't taking much!
Ghostly: ...this does not justify the betrayal of hundreds of thousands of players that have been using this project.
Ghostly: We live in this league of corruption.
Shenna: Five hundred, four hundred euro per month, is nothing. Just for living.
Crogge: And quite a few people are, in this team, aware of it by the way. Just saying.
Ghostly: Yes, they admitted to being aware of it. And they also admitted to wait for so long just to gather proof. So they are outrageous...
Crogge: But that proof is months old! You don't have to gather much. I mean...


Right after, you have Crogge admitting to be selling gold an characters:

Lambda: So Shenna was stealing money and Crogge too?
Crogge: I never stole any money from the PayPal. I never took a cent from it.
Lambda: Yeah, you were selling characters...
Ghostly: Characters and gold. Is it true?
Crogge: Yeah, but that's work I made on my own. I didn't take anything from the donated money. That's quite different.


So, they've known that Shenna has been leeching money for months. Yet on September 4 they requested more money from the community while assuring us of that they're still a non-profit and non-pay2win project. Thus they are all to blame to a certain extent. They've taken part in concealing that Shenna and Vitaliy started operating under new pseudonyms but also in deceiving us about Shenna's thievery.

As far as I know, nobody has access to the PayPal account except from Vitaliy and maybe Shenna. Vitaliy is the dude running the show. He owns the hardware. Yet zero focus is on him. It's a safe bet to say he's been making huge profits out of this project.
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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

by Winterflaw » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:20 pm

Writ wrote:
> I wrote:
> > You've not heard anything or anyone speak in the defence.
> You're incorrect.

[snip prosecution of Shenna et al]

In a court, there is a prosecution and a defence. All evidence is provided, the jury deliberates. The prosecution argues for guilt, the defence for innocence.

What we have here is and only is prosecution. No *defence*. You have in your post acted as and only as the prosecution - making the case for guilt.

My point and my only point was that *there has been no defence*. Not that there is *no evidence*. Without a defence, and indeed without an impartial jury to judge, there is no justice.

This is what I mean about jurisprudence. I'm a software engineer - I know about writing software. I'm not a plumber. I know nothing about plumbing. None of us are judges. None of us know about jurisprudence - and, additionally, an on-line forum, where people are at their most unreasonable, intolerant and unthought, is possibly the worst possible environment for jurisprudence anyway.
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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

by Motorbreath » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:27 pm

So you're basically hijacking the server - the core and the database - from it's owners. And taking advantage of the acces they gave you for the sole purpose of running it.
Instead you used that access to stop the server from running in any way possible, including shutting down all the realms giving links to that thread and to lightshope.org with your side of the story at the same time shutting dow the official Elysium internet platform where the server owners could voice their own side of the story, and after doing so you've also deleted their own account database copy...
And you are justifying it all by a "lack of oversight on those with the most access to the servers", "failures to uphold the projects ideals", THEORIES about Vitaliy - the server owner - and his possible name changes that you for some reason consider unacceptable after all the smearing he suffered and that you still have no proof of.
On the contrary now you have the word of Crogge, who openly admitted that it was in fact him who was doing all the things Vitaliy has been accused of, and that Crogge character is also saying that Shenna knew and participated. And now what? You steal the server from Shenna and Vitaliy based on that corruptioner's words and Crogge himself stays and will be running his operation without Shenna's participation? So, he was doing it all for profit and then suddenly decided to repent and tell us all about it? Sounds to me like a scheme. Where is any guarantee that he won't be doing it in your brave new game world under a new name? Since he's been doing everything Vitaliy has been accused of so far?
At the same time you admit that "The reason she [Shenna] has remained with the project is because she is the primary account holder for key Project services: the OVH account and the Github", that "the PayPal is held under Vitaliys name and is a key reason why the project is able to continue operating without fear of shutting down from legal requests" as well as "This is why the contents of the PayPal donations were never presented to the public". Basically you're putting all the blame on the lack of donation transparency on those people and at the same time admit that they were probably the main reason the server could exist in the first place.
So allow me to make something straight to you.
No matter how good you justify your actions to the public and to yourself, so far you still sabotaged the servers using the most cruel ways possible after participating in those activities - or at least in hiding them from the public, knowingly or not - for months.
And you're seemingly doing so without any attempt to solve the problem inside the team first, without an attempt to avoid damaging the server's reputation and stability. Putting the other party in the most disadvantage that was available to you without a warning.
This alone is enough to make it completely clear - you don't care about your players one bit willing to risk it all for a chance of having the same or most likely worse situation in result.
Dividing the community, ruining the last bit of trust you had, and all that based on the word of one confessed corruptioner and your supposed ability "to confirm that Shenna has taken at least roughly 2000 euro or more for personal financial reasons". So tell me: how do we know it wasn't Crogge or your new leader - whoever he or she is - that took the money and then pointed a finger on Shenna to justify stealing the server too? How do we know and - most importantly - how do you know it's not "a cash-out option taken with the players personally identifiable information" you were so afraid of in the first place? We should just believe you after you've poined your finger on Vitaliy and Shenna and told us they are the bad guys?
Well, I'm not buying what you're trying to sell here.
Your reckless actions in an attempt to build us all a better future and to "uphold the projects ideals" so far resulted in 24 hours of downtime.
You know what? I don't really care if admins are corrupted as long as the servers are running. And I don't see you making the situation any better - not now nor in the future.
The only thing we know for sure - Elysium is dead (at least for now).
And it is your doing.
Good job, Nostalrius.
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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

by metagame » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:35 pm

Who really cares if they were selling gold/characters? Is it not true that the domain name for the #1 gold selling site on Nostalrius was registered on the same day that nostalrius.org was registered, a few months before the idea was even released to the public?

Every server has rumors of the staff gold selling. No one really gives a shit; in the end it takes time to get gold either through RL money or in-game grinding.

Advantage to having servers in Russia: they don't give a shit about the US copyright law violations.
Disadvantage to having servers in Russia: they are constantly trying to gather PII for hackers.
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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

by Winterflaw » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:56 pm

metagame wrote:Who really cares if they were selling gold/characters? Is it not true that the domain name for the #1 gold selling site on Nostalrius was registered on the same day that nostalrius.org was registered, a few months before the idea was even released to the public?


I have no idea if this is true or not.

Also, it's arguing because *other* people are unethical, then it's okay for Elysium to be unethical.

I think however none of this is key. The key issue is telling people you're *not* selling gold and then selling gold. It's deception. Selling gold *as such*, if people know it's happening and so are not being lied to, *is fine*.

It may be if people were told gold selling would be done, they'd be fine with it. However, if this was expected to be the case, why hide it?

Generally speaking, things are hidden when it is expected the people who are being kept in the dark *would* be unhappy if they knew.

In the case of Elysium, I imagine the advantage of pretending not to sell gold is a larger player base, which in turn provides a larger market to sell gold.
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Re: Death of Elysium, birth of Light's Hope

by metagame » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:05 pm

I never said it was okay, but it's a fact we have to deal with, and we have to look past it to be able to play vanilla WoW.

At least Elysium open sourced their core.
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