Nostalrius Begins - Quality wow vanilla realm (1.12)

First I want to thank the makers of this server and it is not their fault for things the community does and scummy behavior of players taking the path of least resistance. They can only try to fix problems that were not as prevalent in retail vanilla WoW and asking them to fix it is no easy task. If you are being rude towards Nostralrius staff and the people working hard out of the kindness of their hearts to just give people a Vanilla server? You are a scumbag and you just might be a bigger scumbag than the people premading, dodging queues.

Think it is pretty safe to say 60 PvP is ruined. People that were leveling and that have seen 60 pvp on twitch (people just queue dodging) no longer want to finish leveling. Personally I gave up after watching several streams where all I saw was level 60 streams never fighting anyone, and dodging the other premade with multi queue. Low level brackets are "where the fun is at", when it shouldn't be. Some could even argue that any fix is impossible at this point due to gear differential from exploiting the current system and think a pvp gear wipe may be in order seeing that many people did not even pvp to get pvp gear. Why should players who see that 60 is just win trading get to 60? They are stupidly behind, if there is a pvp fix at 60, than they will have to work much harder towards gear that others exploited and not be able to compete for a long time. Add to that, they will be farmed by guilds in Warlord/GM gear doing carries for a few undegeared people. I see many ideas thrown around but I don't think people understand that nothing here is an easy fix and fixes can also have downsides and people do not understand that Nos has to take all this into consideration.

1) Disabling group queue. What would it accomplish. Not much. People would just queue at the same time on voice com. People made mods to get around this in real WoW in things like AV (think it was called AV Enabler). It is very hard to ever stop premading in WoW. If you did, people who wanted to play with a friend or 2 would just get upset. Now you have ruined the game for them. I would love a solo queue only (would be impossible to implement) but many people would not, and you have to realize that it would ruin the game for many people, while it may "fix" it for you. Not a very valid option.

2) Disabling multi queue. One of the better suggestions. Premades would still roll non premades, but they would often have to face each other. Downside. Longer queues. Still a bandaid fix though, that does not solve the root of the problem. It could work as a fix until a better solution though.

Fixes outside the box and trying to fix what Blizzard never had to deal with.

1) Redo the vanilla pvp system. May require a Gear reset or scaling back gear people have already earned. Maybe put them all in blue pvp gear and take away the weapon or scale it down. Put a reasonable cap on honor and progression. This would solve a few things. Maybe 1 week per rank to rank 10 that could easily be done in SANE play in any playstyle, such as solo queue. Could make rank 11, 3, rank 12 4, rank 13 5. Increase experience gained in brackets past 29 (non twinking) to encourage play (I think twinking is stupid, but as I said I want to consider all peoples opinions and styles of play). The encouragement at 60 would simply be enjoying pvp. If they made the time investment long enough, I think it would also be fair. 22 weeks and you could earn decent gear raiding, so you are not exactly getting a hand out. You could also make the weapon a much longer time period than the other ranks. Maybe 10 weeks.

Players will always take the path of least resistance and the old system based on a curve makes scumbag tactics the norm. Without solving the root of the problem I do not think bandaid fixes will help. People are not pvping to enjoy pvp at 60, they are competing against a curve which is insane and requires you to do whatever the biggest scumbags are doing to keep up. Many of the "scumbag" people are only doing what they are forced to do. Nos Staff never made this curve and flawed system. Blizzard did. It just does not work any more.

By removing the need to premade, queue dodge to keep up with an honor curve you will remove much of the negative player behavior.

Arguments against. "What about the gear I earned". Most of you did not "earn" anything. You sat afk in a game that was lopsided on numbers. They could also start players past say level 10 rank at rank 10 or their current rank under that. You would still be more than 2 months ahead of a new player.

2) Remove pvp gear all together. This is a solution that might work on a pve server, but something that would make people on a pvp server extremely mad. Even on a pve server this would not work well. Many hybrid specs would have a hard time competing as they would never get the gear raiding. Ele shamans, shadow priests, etc. No they are not used in raiding, but some may play the pve server to engage in pvp.

Anyways I would like to see much more encouraging "fixes" or feedback given to Nost and it be more constructive. Please try to keep insults out of this thread, and if you hate any ideas or arguments I presented, feel free to explain why. Also give some of your own, or new ideas. I am sure Nos staff knows 60 PVP is broken, but the "fixes" all have downsides and any "fix" will be met with opposition from members and fixes I gave may be too hard to implement (please tell us that Nos staff) and may require "sacrifice" of current gear/ranking. Not all players are going to agree on any one fix I think. I would love to finish leveling here, but I just see no reason to anymore and it saddens me. I will probably just end up doing pve on the pve server and at this point am just waiting for that and occasionally logging in low level players so I can actually engage in real pvp.

Disabling group queue: I vote Yes.
Disabling Multi-Queue: I vote No.

Disabling Multi-Queue will punish people and thus reduce participants for battlegrounds and low level battlegrounds wont have a chance of proccing arathi basin.

Remember with disabling multi-queue people will have only 1 choice they can make. Nobody wants to wait for alterac valley without beeing able to already play in WSG or AB while waiting on AV.

disabling group queue is the best idea because it crushes the 10 man group into 1 man pieces and everything is solced: Everyone queues solo.

Glas wrote:Disabling group queue: I vote Yes.
Disabling Multi-Queue: I vote No.

Disabling Multi-Queue will punish people and thus reduce participants for battlegrounds and low level battlegrounds wont have a chance of proccing arathi basin.

Remember with disabling multi-queue people will have only 1 choice they can make. Nobody wants to wait for alterac valley without beeing able to already play in WSG or AB while waiting on AV.

disabling group queue is the best idea because it crushes the 10 man group into 1 man pieces and everything is solced: Everyone queues solo.

Problem I see with solo queue is people will just queue on voice com at the same time. They would have to implement something to prevent that like a stagger. No idea how easy it would be. I would personally love that, and it would be the easy fix. Problem is people might complain who cannot group queue. Many people will not pvp if they cannot play with a friend. I do not have an issue with a solo queue only, but many might.

It's very easy

1) keep current idea in place (queuing priority for premades vs premades, pugs vs pugs)
2) make it impossible for puggies to slowly trickle into the prem vs prem games if one side decides to dodge
3) disable the victory condition based on the number of people in the game (not sure if it's enabled here, actually, but that's like the most retarded thing I've ever seen)
4) shorten the time limit for when there isn't enough players OR add a new timelimit for when one of the sides has no players at all (2 minutes max)
5) make it so you can multiqueue, BUT as soon as you (or your premade) join a bg, you (or the group) drop all queues

Result: premades HAVE to play other premades. If one of the premades in the game decides to dodge, the other is stuck in a 15 vs 0 game which they can't win in any way (because of the lower time limit), thus getting no honor. If both premades decide to play eachother, well, that's awesome, they have an actual game and they're out of the way of the puggies. Win-win.
5) is a fail-safe for when win traders get smart and go like, start the AB game prem vs prem, let one side cap everything, then one prem jumps the queue into WSG. Can't do that with queues burning as soon as you join a bg.

Cons:
- Harder for win traders to farm high rank. I couldn't care less, scumbags. L2p.
- Longer queues... this argument is actually brought up very frequently despite being completely idiotic. Riddle me this, geniuses: how exactly do you expect to have better quality games (= not ending in 3-4 minutes every time) AND NOT have longer queues?

"5) make it so you can multiqueue, BUT as soon as you (or your premade) join a bg, you (or the group) drop all queues"

I really like that idea. Makes a lot of sense.

" Longer queues... this argument is actually brought up very frequently despite being completely idiotic. Riddle me this, geniuses: how exactly do you expect to have better quality games (= not ending in 3-4 minutes every time) AND NOT have longer queues?"

Totally agree with this statement. I would rather wait in a queue then play 1-3 vs 10-15. If the queue times are bad for one faction, people will join the other.

To state the system is untouchable due to it being a classic feature is only being selective in the list of things that are not in fact classic here. There should be meaningful, open channels of communication with staff to solve such issues.

I can't think of anything worse for a community that has authentic pvp potential than to see it spiral down to win trading and riding round in circles while the enemy team sits in their base waiting for us to 5 cap. Intended/Preferred by individuals or not, getting the PvP gear without actually doing the PvP does not make sense and should be addressed. I'd say that the majority of people here are looking for a good fight, good bg's, good world pvp. The current system only favors people who would exploit the fact that they can "out play", or more literally "out last" other people because that's what is required and rewarded. It is no player's fault this is the exploitative rule set we deal with, but it can be changed if we all would like to have more meaningful, real, fun PvP goin on here.

I am all for revamping the PvP progression to something cooler.

Halcyon702 wrote:To state the system is untouchable due to it being a classic feature is only being selective in the list of things that are not in fact classic here. There should be meaningful, open channels of communication with staff to solve such issues.

I can't think of anything worse for a community that has authentic pvp potential than to see it spiral down to win trading and riding round in circles while the enemy team sits in their base waiting for us to 5 cap. Intended/Preferred by individuals or not, getting the PvP gear without actually doing the PvP does not make sense and should be addressed. I'd say that the majority of people here are looking for a good fight, good bg's, good world pvp. The current system only favors people who would exploit the fact that they can "out play", or more literally "out last" other people because that's what is required and rewarded. It is no player's fault this is the exploitative rule set we deal with, but it can be changed if we all would like to have more meaningful, real, fun PvP goin on here.

I am all for revamping the PvP progression to something cooler.

"There should be meaningful, open channels of communication with staff to solve such issues. "

I see mostly hostility, not necessarily from you, but the community. I also saw that they tried something and it didn't work.

Main reason I made this thread. To try to give ideas constructive ideas and HOW they can fix it. As we have seen already, they did implement a fix, but the playerbase just found a worse exploit.

Ana gave some really good ideas. When the staff has those ideas without being told they just don't care (if they didn't care this server would have pay to win stuff) maybe they will be more likely to comment on ideas that are or are not possible, or would be a huge task.

We all want to actually pvp for our gear and the current system obviously is broken. A lot of us are having a blast at lower levels (I am having fun at 39 on a newer character) and are just frustrated 60 is broken, and I get that frustration.

Yelling at people who are already paying for this server out of their own pocket and just telling them "fix it" with no ideas on how to fix it or counter arguments to why something might be a bad idea? Makes it really hard on the staff I imagine.

They probably didn't anticipate people win trading like this, with their latest fix, but without a well thought out discussion on fixes, possible problems and how people could exploit any "fix", they just wanted to "fix it" for the people yelling at them on the forums.

People will say "just disable solo queue" but staff has no feedback on how many people that would make mad. There might also be better options like Ana gave. They need feedback. Perhaps they could throw some of these ideas around and make a poll to see what most people want.

This is not Blizzard entertainment sitting around rooms bouncing ideas off each other with alarge team of programmers that can introduce a fix at a whim, and getting paid to do that. They could have jobs, be very busy. See if you can come up with some ideas like Ana did, and do you agree with them? Why or why not.

The best option is to return to the Blizzlike system. As we have seen over the past few weeks, altering how BG queues work can often have unforeseen negative consequences. Premaders, PuG players, rankers, and casuals all hate the new system, and it's breaking PvP and making people quit. I do think that the old system could be improved by removing multi-queue for groups, which would drastically reduce dodging and reduce the amount of empty games.

The only other option is removing group queue completely. I think this is a bad idea and a step down a very slippery slope of punishing hardcore players and appeasing casual whiners, but it should at least be on the table as an option because it would still be way better than the current state of Battlegrounds.

Also, people will always find ways to game the system, and if group queue were removed then people would just use methods like counting down in team speak and solo queueing together. Sorry but it's a fact. It's only natural that players will find the "path of least resistance" in terms of honor farming methods. So the best option truly is to return to the Blizzlike system that has worked for 11 years.

The old blizzlike system resulted in a mixture of Premade and PuG match ups. Queue times were lower, player pool numbers were higher, and games were almost always full on both sides. Premaders knew that an exciting/competitive Premade v.s. Premade game was always a 1 or 2 queues away, and PuG players knew that a fair PuG v.s. PuG game was always 1 or 2 queues away.

PvP was healthy.

In the new system, tryhard premading is completely dead and has been replaced by win trading, and PuG players might get 1 even/fair/real game out of 5 queues. And that's on a good day.

Revert the changes and give us back PvP.

> Prevent Multi-queuing for groups and premades.
> Allow Multi-queuing for solo players.