Alternative to 17/34 spec for Mages?

[TheFishyOne]

I'm working on a Gnome Mage to be my PvP bitch, but I am not terribly knowledgeable about Mage itemization in this part of Vanilla. I had success with Evertras's 30/31 Ele spec in TBC, and have cooked up something similar here, but not sure if current Mage gear has the stats (INT and spell damage) to support it.

Any Mages wanna weigh in on the viability of a PvP Elementalist (or anything other than 17/34) spec on this server?

[riq and snog]

Pom pyro is the only real spec for mage pvp! Yall know that! Scorch from behind a tree and finish off with that big red firey ball off sticky love!

[Darkwinjax]

The real stat behind ele mage is crit chance, spellpower is important for both, but i'd say that an 8-10% crit chance from gear (not counting intellect or any talent points). Aim for that crit chance without sacrificing your SP into dogshit. Remember that this is a fast spec, you want to get close and roll ignites with your instants on the target, mages don't last long and mana shield will just want to make you cry vs good hunters.

For "real" pvp in premades, 17/34 is obviously the best choise, too much utility / better survivability and you don't have to rely on mana shield, improved counterspell is also the most broken form of CC in WoW since ever so that's a must if you gonna be doing "real" pvp

Another spec is the ignite / frost build, you take the offense that ignite brings and you make your scorch a decent spell other than something to bait counterspells or interrupts and you kinda get the dmg spikes from elemental (no blastwave but ignite is still super good without it), you get to take this with ice barrier, only bad thing about it is that you have no IMP CS. Hope this helped, doesn't take a brainiac to figure out how to spec into these trees.

[Sylvant]

There is no cookie cutter spec for pvp, especially with mage, it varies alot on your playstyle and preferences. I've asked many fellow mages what pvp specs they use and i dont think i ever had a 100% identical answer. However there are few commonly used paths. Frost is the most used main tree, arcane is the most used off tree. Fire works great as either main tree or off tree. Either way, frost is must, having Ice Block in particular.
Im not sure what you mean with 17/34. You should include the 3rd talent tree; i assume you talk about deep frost. It surely is the better choice when gear options are limited, with its survivability feats. What i enjoyed the most, playing on another server with descent gear, was deep fire/ice block, safe to say an elemental spec. Unlike frost, fire gives alot of uncontrolled burst. I wont put specific numbers, or name talents, as it can vary alot depending your choice.
Many pick arcane as off tree, mainly for the improved counterspell talent and extra mana efficiency, but imo, even when going deep frost, fire is the better off tree and the additional burst pays off. Master of elements in conjunction with shatter can even compete with arcane in terms of mana resources.

[Darkwinjax]

There is no cookie cutter spec for pvp, especially with mage, it varies alot on your playstyle and preferences. I've asked many fellow mages what pvp specs they use and i dont think i ever had a 100% identical answer. However there are few commonly used paths. Frost is the most used main tree, arcane is the most used off tree. Fire works great as either main tree or off tree. Either way, frost is must, having Ice Block in particular.
Im not sure what you mean with 17/34. You should include the 3rd talent tree; i assume you talk about deep frost. It surely is the better choice when gear options are limited, with its survivability feats. What i enjoyed the most, playing on another server with descent gear, was deep fire/ice block, safe to say an elemental spec. Unlike frost, fire gives alot of uncontrolled burst. I wont put specific numbers, or name talents, as it can vary alot depending your choice.
Many pick arcane as off tree, mainly for the improved counterspell talent and extra mana efficiency, but imo, even when going deep frost, fire is the better off tree and the additional burst pays off. Master of elements in conjunction with shatter can even compete with arcane in terms of mana resources.

17/34 is obviously refering to CS / frost build, don't listen to this guy, don't take useless talents for PvP like mana regen from Master of Elements, when you have to use mana shield it doesn't matter if you gain 30% of your mana from crits, you will go OOM if your oponent isn't dead in a short time, and this apparently common misconception that elemental gives you "uncontrolled" burst is retarded, you have shatter and you take frostbite, you have more than enough control on how you decide to roll your ignites, not that RNG or %critchance takes no part in it, most of the decisions you have to make while playing 17/34 will be in taking imp blizz or permafrost, the rest is as cookie cutter as it can get.

this is the strongest elemental build: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#oZVgMzf0uZVVG0obth

[bethrezenn]

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#oZVgMzf0uZVVG0obth

pretty much, except impact is bugged when speced at the same time with frostbite and doesnt ever proc, so u might want to choose between them.

Personaly, I preffer going fireball over it since u can nade ball more effectively, aswell as using bites for extra ignites.

[TheFishyOne]

Dark, I'm liking that build you linked, but on further thought you are right in that a 17/34 is simply the only way to fly for serious PvP, due to great survivability, and some of the best control in the game. Also, why Imp Blizz OR Permafrost? Granted, I don't care much for Imp Blizz in PvP (too situational), but why not both? You should never take more than 2/3 in Imp Blizz anyway, due to CoC's slow not overwriting it. Is there really even a need for Imp Blizz for those who don't have an interest in being "That Annoying Mage Defending The Bridge in AV?"

Was thinking http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#obxVMobZZVVGhobtho for Endgame PvP, with the final 3 points being split between PI and EP, depending on how much spell hit I can get from gear. I've heard different things about +hit in PvP; all agree the PvP hit cap is 3%, but some disagree on its effectiveness. Your thoughts?

Also, as a Gnome, I took Mining/Engineering, but simply can't hit PvP targets with Dynamite/Bombs/Grenades, as Hordies seem to move way too erratically in PvP to predict where they are going to be in 2.5-3 seconds. Any advice on how to hit the mark, or should I just stick to using trinkets and other, less explosive goodies?

Beth, you posted right before I finished this up. I had heard Ignite was bugged, but it won't work at all with Frostbite?. Finally, you said "nade." Are you an Engineer? Please share some advice for how to hit PvP targets if you are, as I have problems hitting prize-winning Tauren when I'm close enough to tell that they really need to wash their armor.

[Proctologist]

u wanna blow shit up go elemental spec with ignite, imp scorch and ib+barrier...
FUCKING INSANE
hard af beating a mage with that spec as a pvp specced priest.

for pom pyro there's not enough SPD for u to be.. dramatical.. if you get pve BiS from mc and upcoming bwl then yeah, but until then... glhf pom pyro'ing for 700 XD

although a more premade friendly spec would probably be what has been suggested, arcane for imp CS and then frost for ice block and barrier.


if my pvp vid would ever be done from ED there's multiple clips of me facing mages with that spec I mentioned..

[Darkwinjax]

Ok, the fire / frost spec that you are talking about is not really an elemental spec, since you take icebarrier and you don't get to go as far as blast wave.

OP, you are right when you say that pvping in any other spec other than 17/34 is cancer, atm unless you got access to items such as r10+ / volatile power / ony ring and other GOOD crit chance items, you will be doing very poorly, also keep in mind that playing without icebarrier is pretty different, I don't mean to discourage you from trying this build, cause it really is a fun build if you want to be killing people, but thats not what you should be doing in PvP, you have 60% slow on 0.5s cast + sheep + CS + novas / cone, your job in "real" pvp more than killing people is to CC and be a cunt, builds with ignite are just better at one thing, killing people.

OP, I have no idea why u spec into imp AE instead of Magic Attunement, you realize that dampen magic is actually mandatory if you are going to be fighting say a warlock or a SP, if you have talents for it, it reduces ALOT of the magic damage you will be taking, you also want 5/5 in arcane missiles since they come in handy in some situations where you will get pushback to africa (hunters when your barrier is down).

this is standard 17/34, like I said the only difference is weather or not you want the 3/3 in Imp Blizz, you seem to think that it's not worth having unless you camp AV bridge, not true, it's the highest % slow in the game and it's undispellable, affects multiple targets and has a chance for frostbite, it all comes down to how you want to play your class, which is why mage is pretty fun. http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#obxVbobZZVVGGkbtho

I was honestly never a big fan of the ignite / barrier build that procto is advocating, i'd say if you want to play with ignites you should just go full elemental with blastwave, it makes for a more engaging and fun gameplay, real mages don't use ice barrier

[Sylvant]

17/34 is obviously refering to CS / frost build, don't listen to this guy, don't take useless talents for PvP like mana regen from Master of Elements, when you have to use mana shield it doesn't matter if you gain 30% of your mana from crits, you will go OOM if your oponent isn't dead in a short time, and this apparently common misconception that elemental gives you "uncontrolled" burst is retarded, you have shatter and you take frostbite, you have more than enough control on how you decide to roll your ignites, not that RNG or %critchance takes no part in it, most of the decisions you have to make while playing 17/34 will be in taking imp blizz or permafrost, the rest is as cookie cutter as it can get.

this is the strongest elemental build: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#oZVgMzf0uZVVG0obth

I could guess 17/34 is refering to CS/deep frost since its the most common choice, however it could easily mean ignite/deep frost, which is pretty common spec too. CS/deep frost is more correctly typed as 17/0/34
Back to more important stuff- i placed master of elements only as an optional way of solving mana problems, you could ofc pick any other talents of the fire tree. Dont forget with arcane as off tree you place 5 points in arcane concentration, which is alot more talents invested in direction of mana efficiency.
Ofc its a controlled burst when you frost nova your opponent and follow it a spell crit, but there are many other things which describe as uncontrolled burst. How many ignite stacks you will manage to pull, will the dots break your freeze effects, will the enemy absorb fire critical damage, which will greatly reduce the outcome of ignite, partial resists(you wont see it on frost spells), thats uncontrolled burst. Compared to deep frost, you have far less control over your combo.
Here a showcase of elemental(fire) spec in action https://youtu.be/IyeoT1owdFo

u wanna blow shit up go elemental spec with ignite, imp scorch and ib+barrier...
FUCKING INSANE
hard af beating a mage with that spec as a pvp specced priest.

for pom pyro there's not enough SPD for u to be.. dramatical.. if you get pve BiS from mc and upcoming bwl then yeah, but until then... glhf pom pyro'ing for 700 XD

although a more premade friendly spec would probably be what has been suggested, arcane for imp CS and then frost for ice block and barrier.


if my pvp vid would ever be done from ED there's multiple clips of me facing mages with that spec I mentioned..

I second this, deep frost paired with ignite was quite common and successful on ED, many of the top tier mages were using it